We Were Wrong About Google - Here's What We're Correcting

Episode Transcript

00:00:00
Mike:
Welcome to another episode of Growing Ecommerce. Today we’re sending you to summer school. So sorry to disappoint! We’re going to talk about big lessons from the year so far—excuse me, my voice is starting to fail here. We’re going to talk about big lessons from the year so far, Bart Simpson chalkboard phrases that you should have etched in your mind, and we’ll finally go on vacation to an island in the sun. But unfortunately, Chris’s yacht that he doesn’t own blew away and we’re trapped there. So we’ll go over desert island picks. All right, all that and more.

00:00:45
Mike:
Let’s go for it.
Chris: Hello, sir. Great episode ahead of us.
Mike: Yeah, let’s see how much substance we can create today. Exactly. Chris, I have good news and bad news.
Chris: All right, let’s start with the good news.
Mike: So congrats to both of us. This is episode number 50. We’ve relaunched it as a video podcast together as co-hosts.

00:01:08
Chris:
So 50. Yes, 50 to go!
Mike: Yeah, and then we’ll do something crazy.
Chris: Yes, I love it. I really enjoy it, although it’s work, right?
Mike: Sure, sure.
Chris: I mean, I like it very much, but still, it’s hard to keep up with you. But I love it.
Mike: Yeah. 50—absurd. 50. Way to go!
Chris: Absolutely.

00:01:29
Mike:
So, summer school, man.
Chris: Yeah, I’ve never been to summer school. Always an A student.
Mike: Well, that’s the best student—a B student!
Chris: Yeah, yeah.
Mike: That’s the bad news, Chris, because it’s not A’s or B’s that get you into summer school. You landed in summer school because you failed.
Chris: Wow.
Mike: Yeah. Why are you here?

00:01:49
Chris:
Why? Yeah, why am I here? I don’t know, but I love the question of why I’m here. I mean, look, philosophically, it’s a tough question why we’re here, but let’s not be too philosophical. I think I’m here, especially at Smarter Ecommerce—I like the question of why I’m here at smec.

00:02:11
Mike:
All right, all right.
Chris: I don’t know if I’m here because I failed. I don’t know, but I talked about that in one of our episodes. I still have these moments of just being proud of being part of this company, and I think this means a lot to me. I get a lot of strength out of it.

00:02:35
Chris:
And you know, it’s these little moments when I meet a friend I haven’t seen for a long time and he just chucks me up like, “Chris, what the fuck? I saw your LinkedIn post. You were quoted by Reuters. What the fuck is going on?” And I’m like, that’s cool. So this is still my motivation coming to this place, which means a lot because I’m in my 17th year now.
Mike: 17?

00:03:06
Chris:
Yes, I think I’m at 16, and the company is turning 20 next year.
Mike: Right.
Chris: Company’s turning 20 next year. We’ll have a big party, we’ll do something special here.
Mike: Nice.
Chris: Podcast listeners get a discount on tickets, of course—no cover charge. By the way, man, how long have you been with the firm now?

00:03:24
Mike:
Ten years. Ten years at smec. I’m actually in Austria now for ten years.
Chris: All right, yeah. Exactly, so that’s the reason why I’m here. Not every day is great. For instance, this week I’m just crawling, I’m just trying to survive, but I’m still proud.

00:03:48
Chris:
Not every single day, to be honest with you. But there are these moments where I’m like, “Fuck, this is a great company, great people.” I just love being here.
Mike: Well, that’s a super heartwarming answer, Chris.
Chris: I know, I know! What should I do? That’s who I am. Why are you here?
Mike: I’m here because of the money!

00:04:09
Mike:
Yeah, well, I’m not talking about here at smec, man. I’m here in summer school right now, and I’m here in summer school because I failed.
Chris: You failed? Why did you fail? Where did you fail?
Mike: I failed—let’s see. Earlier this year, I’m going to say in our episode a while back about the August 17th big changes. I don’t know, by the way, when this airs, if this is before or after August 17th, but it’s a date that will live in infamy.

00:04:35
Mike:
Something I got wrong there—because I got some emails from Ginny afterwards. At least she listens to the podcast!
Chris: What did she say?
Mike: Well, I failed because I didn’t answer all four emails and I left her hanging at some point. So sorry, Ginny! But also, something I got wrong is I had this conjecture that that change to the way Target ROAS functions was going to apply to all campaigns.

00:05:08
Mike:
And to be fair, I thought it was a reasonable conjecture at the time, but it’s not true. It’s really only the campaigns that are limited by budget. So that’s a fact that I got wrong, by the way.
Chris: Which is still quite a move on Google’s side, but very honorable that you bring this up.
Mike: Yeah, well, even the great Mike…
Chris: I think sometimes it gives me confidence when you’re wrong!

00:05:37
Mike:
Should we throw in a pop quiz, Chris, if we’re going to summer school?
Chris: Wait, I can’t be the cringe one. Of course I failed many times this year. Let’s say the one big failure I had…

00:05:56
Chris:
…I still think is that I was flat out wrong—and I’m not tired of bringing this up—about Google. I was so wrong about Google in that episode. Sometimes I still watch it. No, I’m not kidding, I do! I still watch it. And I talked out of my ass, and I was just completely a prisoner of the moment because everyone who thought they knew something about that space was completely negative about Google’s outlook.

00:06:27
Chris:
And I jumped on this train, and it hurts. It hurts, I was wrong. I feel like I should actually be in summer school for the next ten years.
Mike: Well, you got an A+ on shitting on OpenAI ads!
Chris: But yes! Watch—it’ll turn into the biggest success story. They won’t hit 100 billion, they’ll hit 200 billion, and we’ll be so wrong!

00:06:52
Mike:
Man, if that’s the case, we’ll have to think about moving to another country. I’ll have to leave the industry!
Chris: Yes, yes, I’d have to. So, yeah.
Mike: You failed, I failed. That’s why we’re here in summer school.
Chris: We’re in summer school.
Mike: Yes. Anything else for failures?

00:07:14
Chris:
For failures, you mean?
Mike: Yes.
Chris: Oh man, don’t get me started. There’s plenty in my personal life as well, okay? There’s plenty.
Mike: And you know, one of the things, Chris, is that more people listen to this podcast now, and on LinkedIn and stuff, people listen to what we have to say. A couple of years ago, if I made a mistake, it didn’t matter.

00:07:44
Chris:
Yeah, no one listened!
Mike: For sure, but you feel the pressure of something like that as well. I really try to be accurate and fair.
Chris: Makes sense. That’s why, by the way, I think you’re so good at what you’re doing, because it means something to you.

00:08:01
Chris:
And I can remember—ladies and gents, before Mike Ryan was Mike Ryan, when this whole thing started—I don’t know if I’m even allowed to talk about it—the first banger article on LinkedIn, when you were kind of critical of Smart Shopping. The first article you launched, the pressure you felt, the nervousness you felt: “Do I belong in this influencer space?”

00:08:33
Chris:
“Am I allowed to write critically about Google?” Man, you came a fucking long way. And I think being exposed means that, of course, you go out on a limb sometimes. It is what it is. So I think it’s great to hear you talk about that and think about that. But man, I think this is part of the game.

00:08:50
Mike:
Yeah, for sure. And that’s why we have people like Ginny to correct us.
Chris: Sure thing. And by the way, I met Ginny before she was at SMX Advanced. Ginny Marvin was always Ginny Marvin, but now she’s playing a super important role at one of the biggest companies in the world, so shout out to her.

00:09:10
Mike:
I got to know her when she moderated me on stage at SMX Advanced in Seattle. And I assume that she has been wrong as well.
Chris: Yes, I’m sure.
Mike: But by the way, regarding the August 17th change, Ginny did a great job doing damage control on that.
Chris: Yes, but there were so many things that were said that made no sense.

00:09:36
Mike:
It was overall poorly communicated.
Chris: Yes, and that doesn’t change.
Mike: No, I mean, we talked to our Google representatives, right? I’ve shared that feedback with Google. That was not good. And by the way, even if it’s just impacting campaigns limited by budget, it’s still a thing. Just because it’s limited by budget doesn’t mean it’s small.

00:10:02
Mike:
There are some big campaigns limited by budget.
Chris: Yes, yes. And again, I think the statement that Google, at least for these campaigns, is going on purpose for less efficient conversions is quite a big thing. However, anyway, let me move on.
Mike: Summer school! So summer school: one big lesson from the first half of the year.

00:10:25
Mike:
What’s on the curriculum now? Math?
Chris: So many things! I would like to start with one which is right on a meta level. I’ve been part of this industry, let me say, for 16 or 17 years. By the way, I never thought I’d be part of the e-commerce industry. I studied finance, I wanted to do something completely different.

00:10:52
Chris:
And for better or worse, I love being part of this industry because, for me, it’s the most dynamic industry there is. I have quite a big network, my friends work in similar positions in other industries, and you can’t compare anything to what we are experiencing right now. My big learning is that the pace we’re operating at—not just we as Smarter Ecommerce, but the whole industry—is maybe even too fast for the most dominant player, which is Google.

00:11:29
Chris:
That’s a big learning for me. There’s so much going on that I feel sometimes even the super smart people at Google—it’s too much for them. And that’s rather a concerning thing. That’s certainly a learning from the first six months: the pace is unbelievably high.
Mike: Yeah, for sure.

00:12:14
Mike:
I mean, I hear you. I think maybe we’ve even said it before, but in e-commerce and e-commerce advertising, we’re at the intersection of changes to search behavior and how people shop, changes to the platform—is it sending traffic your way or becoming a marketplace—and changes to ad campaign technology. Besides software development, there’s arguably no area that AI is affecting more right now than e-commerce and advertising. We’re at the intersection of these, so it is an insane change.

00:12:41
Chris:
And it’s tough to keep up. The silver lining, I think, is it’s more important than ever to have people who don’t lose oversight, who help guide you through. I’m not talking about agencies or strategic partners per se—yes, it’s great having them to guide you through—but I think it’s a big chance for everyone working on the retailer side now. If you do your job now, if you’re willing to step into the shit, man, you can become a true expert.

00:13:08
Chris:
They are more important than ever because the pace is so fast. We see this in our company, right? We have people now who said, “Okay, I accept the challenge,” and what they do within this new AI environment is just mind-blowing. So yes, there is a trade-off, but there’s also an upside. However, the pace, honestly speaking, is too fast right now. There’s too much going on.

00:13:58
Mike:
Chinese e-commerce?
Chris: Yeah, of course! No, it’s not that, but it’s regrouping.
Mike: No, I mean, there are so many things. I learned so much in the first quarter—I spent learning the heck out of AI research. My lesson there is that the technology fundamentally works and it has a reason for existing, but you also need to remain critical. It’s fine to be critical. I think you can both adopt and remain critical because performance is not what Google will tell you it is. But that doesn’t mean it’s bad tech; I think it’s fundamentally good technology.

00:15:00
Mike:
And then learning about UCP in the second quarter—that’s something I focused on a lot. A big lesson there is: don’t try to boil the ocean. You need to take this one piece at a time. This is something you and I were talking about, how fast everything is changing, but you cannot do it all at once. Anyone who tries is just going to fail. You need to take things one step at a time, have clear priorities, a roadmap, a strategy. Those are definitely big lessons, and I think we’re going to see those continue to unfold in the second half of the year and all through next year as well with these new technologies like AI search and UCP. So the lesson will be: try them. Don’t buy into the hype too much, but do try them.

00:15:26
Chris:
Yes, I cosign that. Especially the second one. I don’t know how many decision-makers I’ve talked to this year—it was a lot. And the one learning I had is that there’s this massive FOMO going on. And FOMO, which is kind of a bias, leads to irrational thinking and irrational decision-making. And that’s what I meant with all the noise going on. I think it’s so important to have this correction layer in your decision matrix—whether it’s a blog, a podcast, or a person in your team. I think it’s really important for decision-makers to cut out the noise more than ever.

00:16:19
Chris:
We have clients who do this greatly, and we have clients where there’s still this FOMO going on. As fast as the pace is, the good thing is it’s still the core things that matter the most: get your data strategy right, look at your data feed, your paid search campaigns are still bread and butter. So there’s so much going on, and it feels like, “Oh, I don’t know what to do.” I think there’s a silver lining: it’s still the core work you have always been doing that probably matters the most. That’s also a learning, and I hope this is a learning for a lot of decision-makers out there. There’s noise going on; embrace the noise, but be able to understand what truly matters. It’s more important than ever.

00:17:04
Mike:
Yeah, yeah. It feels like sometimes there are just the hype people, there are the doomers or the bears, and the truth is in the middle.

00:17:23
Chris:
The truth is in the middle, yeah. Teacher, what’s next? May I leave?
Mike: No, you may not leave.
Chris: I love the “no.” Are you, by the way, as a dad, rather on the continuum of being super loose, or a more strict guy? Where are you?
Mike: In the middle.
Chris: Yeah? Don’t be politically correct!
Mike: A little more on the strict side, really.
Chris: I’m super on the loose side! Not because it’s fun—it’s not fun to be strict, but someone has to do it.

00:17:48
Mike:
I know, but you have to. Maybe I should. Maybe that should be written on the wall for me. I’m going to be strict with you now, Chris.
Chris: Okay, so I’m not allowed to go? What do I have to do?
Mike: I think everyone knows Bart Simpson writing lines on the chalkboard. Did you, by the way, speaking of, ever have to do that as a kid?
Chris: No, of course not. I was an A/B student, I always behaved, I was a nice guy.

00:18:11
Mike:
I had to do it.
Chris: Did you, Mike Ryan?
Mike: Yeah. I don’t remember exactly why, but I remember having to do it. My mom would make me fill up like two notebook pages.
Chris: What did you have to write?
Mike: I really don’t remember. But if I go to a therapist or something, I’ll probably suddenly remember again.

00:18:27
Mike:
So what’s your Bart Simpson chalkboard phrase?
Chris: I have a very simple one: “Be more on point.”

00:18:43
Mike:
Tell me what you mean by that.
Chris: I have a great colleague, one of my senior sales managers, and he has an outstanding rhetorical talent. That’s a strength and a weakness at the same time, because he always has so many words he can choose from, and he tends to not be on point, not be simple in his language, for the sake of building complex sentences and complex storylines.

00:19:03
Chris:
And I fall for that quite constantly. I try to reflect on it and correct myself, but I hate that so much. By the way, I think it’s a product of our industry—the type of language we use unnecessarily sometimes.
Mike: Yeah, you lose words in the wind.

00:19:16
Chris:
At the end of the day, one of the best books I’ve ever read was precisely about that: Made to Stick. It doesn’t have to be simple-stupid; it just has to be simple. It’s so much more powerful than complex language. So, “Be more on point.”

00:19:58
Mike:
I remember when I was in college, I was a good writer, and I discovered in some of my courses that I could abuse this. I realized that if I wrote well enough, I didn’t necessarily have to engage with the material that much, and the professor would be dazzled and give me a high grade. You could write yourself around the actual issue.

00:20:22
Chris:
Right.
Mike: And then one time, I had this professor brutally call me out on this to my face, and they were so exactly right. I learned from it, and I never did it again since.
Chris: By the way, I think it’s manipulative behavior, actually.
Mike: Yes, and again, it doesn’t serve the cause.
Chris: I really believe that. I always refer to one of the most powerful speeches ever—JFK when he pitched the idea to get a man on the moon. Listen to that: it could have been the most complex shit ever, but he literally used plain words: “We want to land an object and bring him back within the next ten years.”

00:20:48
Mike:
That’s what I would like to be better at.
Chris: Nice.
Mike: Hold on, one last tangent while we keep going with summer school: AI is so annoying about this! And Claude in particular. I started working with Claude more recently, and it’s so powerful and useful, but it’s so effing annoying the way it writes and talks.
Chris: Yes, it is! Very performative.

00:21:20
Chris:
Very performative. Even with the most powerful prompts to “be simple,” it doesn’t work. It’s very performative. And by the way, I think it will create a negative flywheel because people use AI on a regular basis more than ever.
Mike: I’m so paranoid that I’ll start talking or writing like AI because my exposure level is so high.
Chris: Of course. It’s borderline brain rot. So I encourage everyone to go read books—and read books that were written prior to this year!

00:21:43
Chris:
Let’s rant a bit and just go for it: LinkedIn! Everyone’s writing with Claude now.
Mike: Yes, so annoying.
Chris: It’s annoying! Everyone is “perfect.” I know so many people who are not perfect, and this is not the way you write, this is not the way you communicate. Same for me—I use it probably way too much, and it’s not a good thing.
Mike: No, and I’m pro-AI, you know what I mean? But…
Chris: Well, the thing is that writing is thinking. Writing is fucking hard, but it’s healthy for you, it’s good for you for sure.

00:22:10
Chris:
You put me on the spot now—what about you, mate? What did you put up on your chalkboard?
Mike: Oh, mine is easy: “ROAS is a lever, not a goal.”
Chris: “ROAS is a lever, not a goal.” There you go! I love that. We’ve been talking about that quite some time.

00:22:33
Mike:
All right, now you’ve gone on vacation to an island, but a storm washed your yacht away—the yacht we talked about last night. You’re trapped on a desert island now. This will be a lightning round to wrap it up: What would you bring with you? You can only choose one app platform.
Chris: That’s an easy one: ChatGPT.
Mike: That’s not an ad platform!
Chris: That’s true, okay, good point. All right, Meta.
Mike: Meta? Tell me why.
Chris: Well, I know Google really well. If I’m trapped on an island with an ad platform, I want Meta as well because I’d like to learn something new.

00:23:06
Mike:
Look, when I talk about Google, I include YouTube, of course. And man, YouTube brings so much joy to me.
Chris: Okay, battle of the shorts: YouTube Shorts, Instagram Reels, or TikTok?
Mike: YouTube.
Chris: YouTube? I know you’re a YouTube guy. I’m Instagram here.
Mike: Really? I uninstalled Instagram from my phone this summer because, again, I’m super concerned about brain rot, and I want to be outside and present with my family.

00:23:29
Chris:
Fair enough! You didn’t strike me as an Instagram guy, but there are all kinds of creators and content on Instagram. I love Instagram, and all my nerdy shit that I’m into is on there. Still, YouTube—you have to convince me.
Mike: Not this time!

00:23:49
Mike:
Lastly, you’re on a desert island with one KPI…
Chris: Why do I need a KPI on a desert island? How much water is left in my house?
Mike: No, one ad or e-commerce KPI. What is it?
Chris: Return on Net Ad Spend (RONAS).
Mike: You’re doing it!
Chris: It’s not a target, it’s a lever! Maybe it leverages me back to civilization, I don’t know. What’s yours?

00:24:09
Mike:
I’m going to go in a way more sophisticated direction: Profit Per Click.
Chris: Profit Per Click? Are you on the island of intellectuals, man? I came up with ROAS and you come up with Profit Per Click! It is the better metric, by the way.
Mike: I’m a big believer in thinking about your value per click. People are way too focused on cost per click. Value can be anything, so why not profit? I’m there for profit per click.

00:24:30
Chris:
I’m a simple guy—I’m ROAS.
Mike: This was fun, and now you can actually go on summer vacation, as well as our listeners. We might have a one-week gap until new episodes come back, or we’ll try to fill it somehow, but at max one week, and then off to the races. The next 50 are ahead of us!
Chris: Exactly, 50 more to go! And then we promised ourselves we’ll go on a boat. We didn’t say what kind of boat!
Mike: Thanks everyone for listening. Wishing you a happy summer break. And as always, this podcast is brought to you by Smarter Ecommerce. You can learn more by visiting [link removed]. Please leave us a review, a rating, a shout-out—everything helps. Enjoy your summer, don’t get a sunburn, use sunscreen! Thanks, Chris.
Chris: Thank you. Bye, Mike. Thanks, man, it was a pleasure.